Blurb on solar PV panels: Nov 2016
Transcript from conversation with Green News on facebook. Naumann (seller of solar PV systems) and Gene (writer and advocate of solar, and clear understanding) have a conversation. A separate conversation is taking place between Gene and Network (solar PV user), and this discussion is not seen by Naumann while Nework is seeing the conversation with Naumann. 

Gene says
There are issues with solar/ 
- if everybody is going to benefit,,, then solar industry should answer a few basic questions.. and quit dodging the facts. 

- Solar fans want to sell to the grid, but don't think they should share expense for maintaining poles, transformers, substations, and expenses for improving the grid, such as the huge push to eliminate surge that damages equipment, such as staged motors that are expensive and designed to consume less power and create less voltage drop. 

- If there is lightning and storm damage to the grid, the solar people would want the grid repaired as quick as possible so they can resume selling their electricity, and all people should contribute toward that repair. 

- many solar panels are made overseas, while the grid is home-grown. [research shows the solar panels are made in Mexico and China... unkown what percentage in what country 2016]
 
- Certain solar issues affect the whole population such as vulnerability to damage that can increase the overall cost of homeowner insurance for everybody... 

- and frankly the sellers are saying they 'warrant the solar panel for 35 years,' and that the panel will last 50 years. [error correction... maybe warranty is 25 years... but the conversation word-by-word transcript]

-The sellers of solar panels claim that home prices will increase.... for real, would you pay full price for a home with 25-year old solar panels? .. promises, implied or otherwise, made by solar sellers create possible liability issues that might end up using court and legislative time. 

- solar equipment is costly and vulnerable to theft, requiring public-paid police protection and investigation. 

- A monthly fee is reasonable to ensure that power company can supply electric power to people who are not able to buy solar, and that the grid can supply clean reliable power to attract high tech industry, and pay for upgrades that stabilize the grid long term. 

Frankly I cannot get the solar sellers to calm down and answer these questions 
... and that is disappointing they chose to say the grid is causing harm to people... 
... when the sellers are skewing the FULL cost-benefit of their PRODUCT. 

They are selling a product... and they owe us better than claiming the power company is harming people.
https://www.facebook.com/alan.naumann.90/posts/768289333277038?comment_id=769237409848897&ref=notif&notif_t=feed_comment_reply
Elisabeth Luntz "Despite the motives Rocky Mountain Power espouses in the media, the single greatest effect of a fee on net-metered customers would be to stifle the rooftop solar industry and end the threat to Rocky Mountain Power's energy-producing monopoly." powerful piece.

Elisabeth Luntz "Deb Henry is an engineer in the solar industry. She is also a member of the Sugar House Community Council."
Article on Salt lake Tribune/ with pop-up on web page
Gene
You present a solar engineer as the face of the PRODUCT you sell... and my questions are certainly simple enough to answer by an engineer. I am a proponent of solar power... who simply wants answers.

If the sellers of solar don't like the fee for re-selling power to the grid, they should answer basic questions: - what is solar doing to help pay for the investment needed to prevent surge, and replace and repair poles, transformers, substations, outages - does the surge-protected grid help protect the solar equipment that you sell? and help protect your customers new energy-efficient appliances and 2-stage HVAC units? - what percent of your product is manufactured in this country? -the sellers of solar claim home prices will increase, but how many people will pay full price for house with 25 year old solar? -solar panels are vulnerable to storm damage,, will the increased liability cause insurance rates to go up on other people? -Will solar installations increase potential for theft and require more police investigations and public involvement?

Alan Naumann  says to Gene
Where do you get this stuff. Solar is a benefit. You sell oil and gas, right?

Solar is cheaper than the utility companies. 
We give you a discount and clean energy. 
Please believe me. Solar is good for everyone on the grid cause it reduces pollution and climate changing carbon into all of our world for free. 
A carbon tax is on the way, which will make solar make even more sense not less.

The power company is selling dirty power. How do you price that?
Gene says [I personally don't sell gas and oil, but revenues benefit Texas where I live, and other states]
OK..,. engineer scientist solar-guru? whoever ... you're the smart ones... educate me ... PLEASE just answer the objections. I have asked several times... please just answer the objections. If the solar industry thinks the grid should roll back installation of surge protection equipment that protects the NEW efficiency-mandated appliances, and roll back industry standard for 2-stage motors that save power and reduce voltage drop... if you want those costs and expenses eliminated so that your customers can save a few dollars a month, while exposing their grid connection to damaging surge ... then say so... and explain why. If higher homeowner insurance rates and theft are NOT an issue... and will not affect the whole population ... then say so and explain why.,...,,,, I'm right here waiting... and so are other people... they are waiting too. Please.

Naumann 
The grid is antiquated and needs up grading on every level. 

These expenses are over due. 
We need a "smart" grid 
and time of use rates. 

These expenses are not the obligation of solar buyers. They are part of a maturation process. 

Your concerns are not reasons to tax solar differently than others. 
We have been paying the utility companies for decades so we have paid plenty of dues. 

Clean power has a value far greater than these considerations. Health and well being is over due.
Gene
Ok, the grid is antiquated, Agreed. 'We' need a smart grid. Agreed.. 
except why do solar folks need the grid if it is so expensive and in need of repair? 
Why not just stand apart and go full solar. 

My friend in Nevada is full solar, and he understands not to run too many appliances at same time, and chops wood. 
He installed a big water heater that stores hot water on good solar days so he can sip on other days ,....
 he's got solar panels on the roof and the ground... plus extras to do experiments.... he doesn't connect to grid. 
It seems like you want your customers to be able to run their appliances at same time without shortage or further work or necessity for conservation.... 
certainly they can count on the grid so homes are not cold and they can preserve their health and well-being without chopping down all the trees...  
and then you claim the grid is not the responsibility of your customers.... 
who receive benefits, and expect payments from the antiquated grid ... 
and then assume the rest of us are suppose to pay for the grid benefits your customers enjoy ... and have enjoyed for decades. 
I think your SALES promotion shows savings beyond the actual market value.
Naumann
Solar is an asset to the grid. 
This is the part you refuse to see. 

We prevent you the grid from building more dirty power plants. 
We save save the grid from transmission costs. 
We save air pollution and we reduce green house gases. 
The benefits out weigh the costs. 
We love the grid. It is the battery backup so we don't all have to buy batteries. 
We deserve access to the grid. That's why we will win this. 
The utilities will only create resentment by this foolish ploy. 
It will be a teaching moment for us to say "what is the problem, this is a no brainer."
Gene
Logically if what you say is true... 
and solar is producing all the benefits to the grid... 
and solar doesn't add a nickel of cost to the grid ...

then why don't your customers disconnect from the grid? 

It's a simple analysis. Why do you need the grid if your product is so good?
Network (another person in the conversation) adds a comment to the question: why don't your customers disconnect from the grid? 
Ill answer that.  Because if you factor in the cost of batteries that last 15 years then you don't "come out ahead" financially speaking by buying a grid-tie system from Naumann.
Without the grid his project would not "pencil out" in economic payback terms and people would not buy it.
Of course that is now.    If they can take the price of batteries down to 20% of the current cost the monopoly of the grid will be over and people will just cut the cord.
Grid Tie.. the big advantage: No batteries.  Grid is the battery. No batteries to pay for/maintain
Grid Tie .. the big disadvantage: No batteries.  Grid is the battery. Grid down = no power.
Note:
Naumann says the grid is the battery
Network says the grid is the battery
If a person disconnects from the grid, then they need to buy batteries to hold the charge overnight.
This implies that solar panels cannot be disconnected from the grid

Of course that is now.    If they can take the price of batteries down to 20% of the current cost the monopoly of the grid will be over and people will just cut the cord.
Naumann 
The grid acts as a battery backup system. 
The grid allows us to share electricity generated by our neighbors. 
Some want to be completely independent. 
Most do not. 

Because Rocky Mtn Power doesn't pay us for the power we generate but do not use. 

We advocate this payment so people can build more generation than they use. 
Then there would be more power available locally for my neighborhood. 
This saves transmission expenses to push power from a centralized power plant to the "ends of the line. " 

Rooftop solar allows "infill" of development, so large tracks of land are not consumed by solar panels for acres.
Gene
Thank you for that response. 

I agree, people should be allowed to own something that earns a residual income. 
Likewise they should not have to forgo grid services when their needs are higher than the solar panels can push. 

The advantages of solar are well noted... 
we know solar generation does not consume water at the end user location. 
And solar helps avoid co-generation plants under the right conditions, 
and helps meet peak demand. 

Yes, all roses and happiness .... 
but my list of possible costs to the grid has not been acknowledged or answered.... 

I think it divides people against themselves when proponents of solar keep repeating their side of the argument WITHOUT providing the public with FULL cost-benefit that weighs all factors. 

You have ignored the problem of surge... 
claiming only that solar power is 'clean'... 
without understanding that the word 'clean' is also used on the grid to describe electricity that runs without interference. 
There's more than one side... help me understand the issues that solar causes for the grid.
Note:
Gene
Clean is underlined in box above because it has multiple meanings in the energy business.
Let's be clear... energy is a business... and you are a consumer... and deserve clarity from business

'Green' energy uses clean to promote 'alternative' energy sources... claiming they are much less polluting.
Natural gas industry uses clean to promote their product as less polluting than coal ... despite the fact there are more gas furnaces and water heaters than electric... and that every gas appliance is puffing non-breathable toxins [NO SO CO CO2] into the air at the point of installation, plus dripping acid water at some installations such as tankless water heaters... none of which can be easily abated by each homeowner and business.
Electric grid uses clean to describe multiple things... clean in the past meant low interference on the wire so industrial users could count on uniform wave on the electric line that would not consume surge protectors or damage expensive equipment. It seems likely that the grid is also using clean like the other energy businesses to promote a product or point-of-view.
In this inflammatory environment of competing interests, a bit of clarity is sometimes necessary.
Naumann
We can find the data on surge. 
Glad to be your personal research assistant. 
You will have to give me a couple of weeks. 

The point here is the objections to solar are not cost based or they would agree to a study that includes all solar's assets. 
This study, approved by the Utah PSC will be skewed as a result. 

Facts won't be allowed into the study. This is politically motivated. Not science and not benefit /cost analysis.
Gene
Thank you... I come to the solar expert for a reason... you are the expert on YOUR product. 

The information should be part of the overall calculation for your product. 

Facts, and best-estimates, are better than 'positions.'
Gene
While waiting for results of research... Let me add a long-term benefit that solar PV offers the public. 
The extruded aluminum used for solar panels is dependent on consuming huge amount of electricity for manufacture. 
The advantage that I see... is once the solar panel frame is made... then it can be re-used in 25 years for a new solar panel ... like money in the bank ... WITHOUT  mining or extruding more aluminum.
 ...Assuming that today's solar industry is aware of this advantage. 
And has a plan for recycling old solar panels.. piece by piece ... 
and their customers are aware of how to accomplish this....
[and know] how they can order and install a new panel into existing aluminum frame. 

My understanding is the solar panel is 'glued' to the aluminum frame to ensure waterproofing.  
And the glue is difficult or impossible to remove... which means folks would try solvents or possibly add heat to possible toxic glues in attempt to remove the glue. 
Or maybe just add additional glue. 
It is unknown to me what the glue is made from, or what technique is used for removing it and ensuring the energy-capital spent making aluminum frames is not lost.
Naumann 
We have solar panels from NASA that are 50 years old. They only get better. Inverters monitor electricity into grid. It has to be compatible to be allowed in.

These are not questions about the solar fee. 
Depreciation, theft.home value and such are not in the debate. 
The debate is what is the value of solar to the grid (and everyone on it)?
 Look at the arguments and the documentation in the Utah PSC hearings for the last several months.
 
You can agree with either side you want. I am saying solar has more value than the utility is willing to give it credit for.

The new panels only get better. Panels do fall in productivity over time (0.7%/year is average for better panels).
Gene 

Solar panels cannot produce enough energy to transport solar panels to the end user... 
Solar needs to answer questions. 
http://waterheatertimer.org/Solar-power-cost-benefit.html
Naumann 
Not true Gene. Where are your facts checked?
Gene 
I have been researching... 
I asked the question.. and cannot get the answers... it's not personal, but I want the answers to questions that I have posted. 

It takes 41-43 solar panels to charge 1 electric car for 155 mile journey... with no other load on the car such as trailer, heater, lights ... 
How do the solar panels you sell get to the final consumer? ... plus workers and other needed materials?

Is everything made and delivered using solar for transportation? 
Or am I correct saying that solar cannot deliver solar panels?
Naumann 
We work in the confines of what is. 
We work to make progress. 
Purity is one of many goals. Progress is progress. 
Trying to criticize the process is fine. 
I don't understand why you would support the status quo? 
You don't want to make progress? 
Hope you are ready for minority status, cause most people want progress. 
At least one step at a time. How are you contributing to the progress of all?
Gene 
Thank you. I understand your point... and I stand with you... solar needs incentives to become a major player ... 
...but the solar strategy of re-selling to the grid at maximum price (like Enron), 
....and expecting grid users to pay an overpriced subsidy .... 
....while many solar interests (and websites) rile up folks against the 'monopoly grid,' 
....as if the grid is not all-the-people-and-businesses. 

Simple pencil-paper calculations prove solar is totally dependent on the grid, and the solar position is often overstated and inflammatory, 
I think clear-cut financial analysis is better approach... 
... bottom line, how does solar save the world if people have to cut down all the trees to heat homes?
Naumann 
The grid is ours. It is a publicly owned regulated monopoly for the common good. 
It is controlled by political appointees of a political system that does not represent the majority opinions. 
Let's call it disfunctional to be truthful. 
The grid is captured by managing "sunk costs" which is coal and much less so natural gas. 
The lack of upgrades in the grid, for example "smart grid." Is a problem with or without solar. 

Solar needs reliable and least cost access to the grid because that's what people want. 
The solar industry is responding to demand. 
There is a reason Paris is the big story today. 
Solar is just a part of the solution. 
Barriers to trade, like fees on solar are not justified. 
We pay 8.5 cents to 12 cents/ kWh. (Kilowatt hour). 
Solar is worth more. 
So the utility is stealing from us at a simple trade (credit ). 
There is no price on carbon or on pollution. 
Pollution is free. This makes no sense to 2/3rds of the population.
Gene 
Your answer is exactly what I see.... 
You say: 
1) Solar needs COST access to the grid? 
2) Because that is what people are demanding 
3) and solar is worth more than 8.5 to 12 cents per Kwh. ........

...Facts say 
1) Simple paper-pencil math shows solar cannot produce enough stand alone power to provide for individual customers, and result is they require grid connection.....
2) a quick view at internet sources shows the SELLERS of solar are inflaming public opinion into believing solar can deliver more than it can............ 
3) Simple math shows the grid is doing simple math and your PRODUCT is not worth more than the going rate.... because SOLAR IS TOTALLY DEPENDENT ON THE GRID
... because solar cannot deliver solar, or make a solar panel, or recycle secondary aluminum, or run a furnace, or heat water heater and cook dinner at same time... solar cannot even make the copper-coated steel ground rods needed to meet basic safety standards. ..... 

...conclusion: all you're selling to your customers is the 'opportunity to benefit by reselling electricity to the grid at peak price,'
.... while expecting the rest of us to pay your peak rate ...
... while claiming you are 'saving the world' .... 
I expected more from solar.... many of us did.
Naumann 
So you think Big banks investing in solar are stupid? 
I think there are some facts you are over looking. 
Sorry I couldn't be more helpful.
Gene 
Declaring that Banks invest in solar, and Australia has mini-solar grids, and California does not charge a grid fee... or whatever... 
...does not answer the basic dynamic: 
If everybody has solar power, then the grid is un-needed, 
....and high-solar days means everybody has power, 
....and low solar days will be the highest price for solar electric because nobody has electricity. 

That analysis is the true dynamic of solar power. 
Yet right now, solar power wants the opposite to be true...
... they want to sell their electricity to the grid at high price on high solar days... 
... which is opposite from the true dynamic of solar. 
Your plan is just like a bunch of guys with home-use gas-powered generators that figure they can cash out on the grid when prices are peak. 

How would you like it if the grid decided to charge solar users maximum price when there is no sunshine? 
Solar must be a measurable value without preying on other ratepayers... 
... or your customers can exercise the option to disconnect from the grid, buy batteries, and go full solar, 
... and burn trees to heat house then claim they are saving the world.
Gene
I want to add something:
in earlier post, you said: [the grid] 'is controlled by political appointees of a political system that does not represent the majority opinions.'
 .... this is the MAIN point of our disagreement right now... 
... I see the pro-solar posts and websites that INFLAME public opinion AGAINST the grid....
.... without revealing the TRUE VALUE of your product...
.... in an effort to effect 'majority opinions' in favor of a PRODUCT that you sell. ..
.... this is WHAT our conversation is about...
... and I am trying to inform folks about the true value of solar,
.. so the public is able to make good decisions without running around mad about some article they read on the internet... 
...there are enough mad people in the world, 
... and inflaming more of them is goofy...
.... just answer the questions I ask so we can more forward with figuring the actual value of solar for reducing carbon..,. 
... so we can discuss how to sustainability build and install solar panels without burning down the forests for home heating.

Notes

Primary production: making aluminum products from raw material or ingots, which is highly energy intensive, especially electricity intensiveSecondary production involves recycling aluminum scrap to form new products, a significantly less energy-intensive process
 The combination of high electricity
demand and limited water supply contributed to a significant increase in the market price of
electricity
13 kilowatt hours (46.8 megajoules) of electrical energy to produce one kilogram of aluminum; the worldwide average is closer to 15 kWh/kg (54 MJ/kg).
Gene
The question I am exploring is this....

... the amount of electricity needed to produce and extrude aluminum ...
.... cannot be supplied by solar....
... right now it is mostly provided by hydroelectric dams etc etc...
Al used be about the cost of silver.   The apex of the washington monument was made of aluminium.      Hydro is renewable energy so no worries.[Note; Hydroelectric dams are not renewable]
Gene
This implies.. that solar panels are not a renewable resource without the grid ... unless the aluminum extrusion can be re-used on the next generation of solar....
Network:
It would really be helpful if the solar panel industry standardized on module sizes.   
For instance:  Make a 3 x 5 foot module with 360 watts or whatever.   
Then if you need a module about 1/2 that in power its 1.5 feet by 2.5 feet.
Gene
... in which case... the solar industry should adapt a long-term strategy that gives us re-cycle-able aluminum.
Network:
Exactly.   
And reusable mounts without having to retrofit for the new sized panels.  Should be a no brainer.   Eventually they will come up with the perfect size that minimizes cost per watt but is still easy to handle and durable.   
Right now the 250-320 watt size is getting to the limits of what is easy for one person to handle.

I upgraded my 180w top of poles to take my new 240w panels.  I just needed new AL angle sticks long enough to hold the 3 new panels per side.   Drill a few holes.   It was easy.   
 
The ones on the garage are mounted using S-5.   
http://www.s-5.com/clamps/index_1048.cfm
Gene
The tempered glass would be another recycle issue
Are there any other materials on solar panels that can be recycled?
Network:
The copper wire inside the MC4 connector pigtails. I would remove the metal and make new cable.  It would be distressed after being outside 25-50 years.

The big recycleable is the mounts.    Think of all that concrete, steel and aluminium that is still good because it never rots (my Top of poles steel parts are powder coated).
Gene
Part of the reason I am asking is that the scant resources on internet (that are dated 2014-15 are non-existent) mention the toxins contained in solar panels... and questions how that mass of material will affect the future..
Network
I have no idea.   At least you get something that will last 25-50 years.  How long does a computer or worse... smart phone last?
Gene {on the issue of homeowner insurance:
Homeowner insurance noted.
However Texas, any home south of Hwy 50/ Interstate 69 is not covered for windstorm damage because of proximity to gulf hurricanes.

I live 1 mile south of 59

Windstorm coverage in Texas was transferred to the state.... such wise fools ... since the insurance companies were refusing to write property insurance in Texas.

This means the risk of damaged solar panels falls on all taxpayers and not just individual homeowners.... providing unequal benefit for people with and without solar.

**********
Moreover... with federal disaster relief, the cost of solar could fall to all taxpayers... I am sketchy on details
... but this means taxpayers would assume responsibility for repairing the grid and repairing individual home-owner solar... at same time, the grid is undergoing hardening against windstorm damage, and vulnerability to cyber, and surge, and solar etc etc.

So if every home has solar,,, and there is no requirement to harden solar installation against damage... then 50,000 homes damaged x $20,000 per solar panel installation is a big expense...
Nerwork:
So the state [of Texas] is involved in the insurance business now?  Really?  What could possibly go wrong.

I bought the high-wind version of my top of pole mounts.  Beefier, hope they last.   The S-5 mounted stuff isn't going anywhere.   
I pay extra for the panels to my insurance company.  
I don't get a free ride from the state [monopoly] on that one.
If you like your Monopoly you can keep your Monopoly!  ha ha.

 My big risk is range fire.
de-regulated electric
Larger image

Gene
Repair of rural streetlights is no longer covered, because privatization allowed them to re-classify ordinary street light as 'guard light' ... even though our street light looks like any other street light.

For 7 years our street light blinked on-off until my wife got hurt. Then I started calling the electric company that owns the poles... asking who we sue. After the 5th call... suddenly no problem... we can have a truck there on Tuesday... and I took pictures ... but this was at same time newspaper carried story about a loose guy wire the power company refused to repair.,... and a bunch of kids were using it to swing around until one of them shorted against the power line and got killed.
Gene (On the issue of Monopoly)
Here in Texas they de-regulated electric. 15? years ago.
... Telling folks that competition would lower prices and build more power generation plants.
Neither happened.

The corruption, con-games, and higher prices started immediately.

They set up an exchange that listed 'providers.'
The exchange was run by a contractor who took payoffs to steer people to certain vendors.... typical of the internet today... but outrageous when it happened.
The state had to take over the exchange to insure fair information.

Next, the prices started going up. One of the highest in the nation.
We were 'free' to shop for competitive electric prices [among the listed providers only], but were not allowed to buy from Louisiana that offered 4 cents less.
We couldn't buy from the San Antonio 'monopoly' that did not privatize, and where prices never increased.

The the private companies added disconnection fees and hidden fees.
Some of the companies offered very low rates for very low consumption ... but if you went slightly over the consumption mark, your bill suddenly cost hundreds of dollars per days. Newspaper showed bills of $700 just for the overage fee.

The privatized grid hurt a lot of people.

The democratic legislators began telling the new grid owners that we-the-people were going to reverse their ownership.
So the Public Utility Commission put a clamp on the free-market business practices ... and prices begin to fall.

So now we still have to sign up with a damn 'provider' and shop for prices and compare DEALS.... what a pain in the aeske for older folks and folks with other limitations.
Because if you just stay with the same provider... they will automatically roll the rate up unless you go online and sign up. So people with limitations cannot get fair pricing.
Moreover... the repair of rural streetlights is no longer covered, because privatization allowed them to re-classify ordinary street light as 'guard light' ... even though our street light looks like any other street light.

Moreover the bastards sold my public utility... that I owned... to their friends... and I got NOTHING in return for yielding my ownership share.

The mountain states should be aware before they give away their ownership.
Because the only thing that saved us was the newspaper telling people what was going on... and the newspapers and media are not so inclined these days to represent the people.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/utilities-sensing-threat-put-squeeze-on-booming-solar-roof-industry/2015/03/07/2d916f88-c1c9-11e4-ad5c-3b8ce89f1b89_story.html
http://reneweconomy.com.au/2014/australian-networks-see-future-of-renewables-based-micro-grids-42817
Network
Gene's Attitude:  Grid Tie users: pay a fee to use the grid as a battery.

Neumann's Attitude: No! Let Grid Tie users use the grid for free transferring the cost of maintaining and operating and improving the grid onto the backs of the non-grid tie people.

Dave's Attitude:  Let the grid go.  Let the grid-tie, anti-grid-tie people fight it out.
Your question about selling across property lines cause me to do some thinking

Your approach to the grid is that it is a monopoly that stifles innovation
My approach to the grid...
Probably because I live in dense population area and see different types of restrictions that limit competition...
So I see the grid as standardization that helps even the competition [prevents predation] inside a city that are not as noticeable outside the city
Obviously predation is a problem in the city otherwise why would people move out of the city for safety

No comment needed on the evils of the city

So our viewpoints about the grid may be a product of geography
There is a field of study on social geography about this stuff

Anyway
Forget about that

^^^^^^^^^
Selling electric power to neighbor

I said maybe this is an old standard from the past to preserve reliability and safety

Does this affect solar
Naumann says he wants to sell power to his neighbors
I say fine
But we know you cannot just run a 4/0 wire more than 100 yards to your neighbors house without voltage drop
Solar requires a transformer to distribute power to their neighbor
Solar needs standardize electric voltage is standardize why are standardized billing standardize practices
Or cannot provide unclean or unreliable energy to their neighbor
Sooner or later solar will have to address the issue of standardization of electric power
Selling across property lines
Distribution

Shoot this full of holes
Transformers and transmission
Cost shifted to solar
Standards
Bucket truck poles source of transformers
Safety standards

Eventually it would become a monopoly

Seems like you're fighting over who should own or control this

Eventually it would become cooperatives like on Australia

Appliance standards

The need for standardization is for reliability
And affordability
Voltages are standardized
Wires and appliance standards
Transformer standards

Obviously solar is going to adapt to the grid standards and appliance standards

If each solar installation is responsible for the distribution of their power
Solar wants to sell to their neighbors
They want the grid to handle the billing transactions
They want the grid to handle the cost of distribution
They want the grid to maintain the poles and transformers reset the fuses and repair the lines

You cannot transmit power to your neighbor without a transformer
Yes you can run of 40 copper wire several hundred feet and still get pretty good voltage without loss on the line

But there is a limit to the transmission of solar power without a transformer
And the copper wire is expensive
Are the individual owners of solar going to start buying spools of wire for transmission wire and triplex. And bucket trucks and insulated gloves and pay to train people to handle and inspect high voltage lines all hours day and night to ensure reliability
I disagree with the Neumann model that transfers the cost of the grid to non-renewable energy consumers.  But I undestand the view point.

  The reality is that the current situation is that renewable energy is more expensive than non-renewable energy and the government wants to encourage renewable energy ... so that shift of cost IS reality by government dictate.

If the transport grid is going to exist then it has to make economic sense.   It has to make energy sense or people are not going to buy it.

Upgrades to make the dumb grid into smart grid also have to make sense.

People buying grid-tie systems to be later told that there is a fee and the fee is now 50$ 100$ 200$ 400$/month.  People need to know that the governement and the PUCs can "change their mind" and the economics of the grid-tie system is at risk to not paying off.

Are the Arizona grid tie people grandfathered in?  Do you know?
Ok let's view this another way.

Country folks grow crops and bring the crops to market.

The countryside has a new crop. Electricity.
You took the risk, purchased the seed, hoped for rain, worked hard to conserve.

You have excess crop. At some times. And not enough at other times.
Others need the crop when you have excess. And they supply you with crop when you do not have enough.
Of course you have to bring the excess crop to market... (sell to neighbors/ and sell to city)
Obviously you cannot sell to neighbors if everybody has solar because your shortages and overages occur at same moment.
Simple local distribution is not necessary if everyone has solar. Eventaually solar will be as unreliable for everyone as it is for the owner... unless you have battery back-up... which cann ot be efficiency used for distribution.
But right now, not everybody has solar... so your excess crop is valuable.

You think somebody else should buy your crop at your location.
Pay for picking up your electricity at your location, loading it onto the distribution wire, uisng the dristribution transformer, then re-sell to their customers, handle the billing, collections, and disconnects and repairs, and maintain the wires and transformers... and manage surge and clean power, and computers... for free.
Ignoring that the rest of the grid cannot be predatory in it's pricing without robbing every other business, while you demand peak pricing since your crop is frequently available at the peak.
In many ways a huge PV bank can make up for a undersized battery bank.  Huge PV array lets battery recover quickly.  Huge PV array makes enough power on cloudy days to maintain small battery bank.
Solution: By more PV instead of more battery.

Human Load Shifting.
- Laundry done on sunny days.
- Water garden on sunny days, cut back on cloudy.
- Fill hot tub with water on sunny days.
- Make distilled water on sunny days with moderate temperature (No AC No Heat Required)
- Pump water uphill to storage tank on sunny days
- Use toaster oven instead of main oven on cloudy days.
- Take more showers when sunny.  Stretch out times between and shorter showers when cloudy.
- On power hungry days:  Spot cool one room with room AC instead of central AC.  Spot heat one room with floor heaters instead of central furnace.
- Power production, storage and consumption monitoring technology lets the human know better what is going on.



3) Computer Load Shifting and Opportunity Loads.
- Computer control cycle freezer off during the night, on during the days.  Freezer is like a battery.  It can store energy using cold.
- Computer control send excess PV power to water heater.  Water heater stores energy using heat.
- Computer control sends excess PV power to floor heaters.  House stores energy using heat.
- Sunny day:  Charge the electric car, save money not driving gas truck.

4) Load Reduction Technology:

- Loads at night are a problem:   What things do you run at night?
Lights!  
Technology:  Incandecent -> Compact FL -> Crappy LED -> Great LED
LED are now getting very good in terms of light quality CRI and super for efficiency.   Less heat means lower night time AC costs.

- Occupancy sensors for lights:

- Lower power television  LED backlight instead of CFL

- Lower power computer.   Monitor see above.   500W workstation vs 5W Raspberry pi or similar.
- Manufacturers being better about making devices with less parsitic power.

5) Load Control Technology.  Monitoring Technology:

Cheap Cheap Cheap!.   35$ Raspberry PI with 30$ PiFace IO board.  0$ software.

6) Computer controlled back up power:
- Autostart generator maximum convience, limits generator run time.
- Relays to auto control sipping from the grid (if available) using battery charger.   

Add to list of stuff that busts solar:

1) Falling ice.  Ice can build up on structures above it.  Then rapid melting drops chunks of ice onto panels breaking them.  Happens all the time.  True story.

2) Heavy equipment or vehicles ram into panels.  Bending frames, breaking glass.   Vehicle wins.  Panel loses.  True story.

Also more downside to grid.

Slapping power lines in high winds cause sparks that light up the sage plants and juniper trees on edge of city.  Acres catch on fire.  10 houses burn to ground.   Add 10 houses to cost of maintaining transport grid.  True story


Naumann's plan for distribution needs transformers, fuses, spools of wire, glass insulators, bucket trucks with insulation and grounding, long fiberglass poles, insulated gloves, trained people.... plus standardization, billing, ....

And high voltage danger pay, workers compensation, health care for the power worker family, unemployment insurance, retirement pension.  Bucket truck, mandatory high voltage OSHA training.  mandatory arc-flash-avoidance OSHA training, arc flash protection gear, mandatory tower and pole climbing safety training, mandatory safe-driver-education training, diesel insurnace oil change for picker bucket truck.  Insulated socket set, screwdrivers, ladders, insulated everything.   Donuts on Fridays.   Vacation pay.

Invest in grid expansion of your own.
That's a better measure of the true worth of solar than blaming the grid for solar woes.

If solar is the new economy... then prove it without feeding off the grid.

If it can be done without cutting down all the forests for firewood, and can produce enough power to make replacement solar panels... then the worth of solar is proven...

If however, your neighbor sues you because your voltage drop damaged his appliance motor... then you have an issue.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Let me push a new direction...
Selling to neighbors

Your experience off-grid offers more insight than listening to high-consumption users say that they want the grid to pay them.

You installed the solar yourself... 
...learned the trade.
... made compromises.
..reinvested into your own generation.
... did the repairs and maintenance and upgrades
.... added software and tweaks

... You are a MINI grid
... did you act like a monopoly over your grid?

... let's say you sell power to your neighbor.
... and let's say by law, you must sell power to your neighbor.
.. then your neighbor installs a generator
... and your neighbor tells you he expects to sell back to you
... you agree he can sell to you.
... because you also sell power to other neighbors.
... and some nights there is a shortage of power for everyone.
... because there is a shortage of power at night, you encourage people to conserve same as you, by increasing night rate.
... so then your neighbor only runs his generator at night... so he can capitalize on your night rate..

Tyrant.  Not monopolist.
What I have is not a monopoly. Its WORSE, ... WAAAYYY WORSE.    What I have is power tyranny.   I wake up in the morning and cuss at the guy in the mirror that I haven't done enough for my customer and I need to work harder to make things better.  True story.

My system?  Yes.  Big problem is the air conditioner runs 4000W but needs at least 12000W start up surge.  I need to make that AC controller so it starts when I want it to start.

Oh there is that tyrant again.
Just for the record I don't cut down green trees.   There is nothing nastier, more scratchy, more time consuming and less productive than cutting down a Live Green Juniper tree with all of its horrible nasty needles, twigs, bark.  Its just horrible.  *shudder*.   Cutting up Juniper thats been dead for 10-50 years is where its at.   I could burn it the same day I cut it if I wanted.

I dont think there is a lack of firewood around my area.  The forest service does controlled burns in Tahoe and fills the basin with smoke.  They are like me.  They slash the dead stuff during the fall and burn it in the winter to control forest fires.

Control burns: All that CO2 and heat ... up in the air.  Going to waste.
In many ways a huge PV bank can make up for a undersized battery bank.  Huge PV array lets battery recover quickly.  Huge PV array makes enough power on cloudy days to maintain small battery bank.
Solution: By more PV instead of more battery.

Human Load Shifting.
- Laundry done on sunny days.
- Water garden on sunny days, cut back on cloudy.
- Fill hot tub with water on sunny days.
- Make distilled water on sunny days with moderate temperature (No AC No Heat Required)
- Pump water uphill to storage tank on sunny days
- Use toaster oven instead of main oven on cloudy days.
- Take more showers when sunny.  Stretch out times between and shorter showers when cloudy.
- On power hungry days:  Spot cool one room with room AC instead of central AC.  Spot heat one room with floor heaters instead of central furnace.
- Power production, storage and consumption monitoring technology lets the human know better what is going on.



3) Computer Load Shifting and Opportunity Loads.
- Computer control cycle freezer off during the night, on during the days.  Freezer is like a battery.  It can store energy using cold.
- Computer control send excess PV power to water heater.  Water heater stores energy using heat.
- Computer control sends excess PV power to floor heaters.  House stores energy using heat.
- Sunny day:  Charge the electric car, save money not driving gas truck.

4) Load Reduction Technology:

- Loads at night are a problem:   What things do you run at night?
Lights!  
Technology:  Incandecent -> Compact FL -> Crappy LED -> Great LED
LED are now getting very good in terms of light quality CRI and super for efficiency.   Less heat means lower night time AC costs.

- Occupancy sensors for lights:

- Lower power television  LED backlight instead of CFL

- Lower power computer.   Monitor see above.   500W workstation vs 5W Raspberry pi or similar.
- Manufacturers being better about making devices with less parsitic power.

5) Load Control Technology.  Monitoring Technology:

Cheap Cheap Cheap!.   35$ Raspberry PI with 30$ PiFace IO board.  0$ software.

6) Computer controlled back up power:
- Autostart generator maximum convience, limits generator run time.
- Relays to auto control sipping from the grid (if available) using battery charger.   

Add to list of stuff that busts solar:

1) Falling ice.  Ice can build up on structures above it.  Then rapid melting drops chunks of ice onto panels breaking them.  Happens all the time.  True story.

2) Heavy equipment or vehicles ram into panels.  Bending frames, breaking glass.   Vehicle wins.  Panel loses.  True story.

Also more downside to grid.

Slapping power lines in high winds cause sparks that light up the sage plants and juniper trees on edge of city.  Acres catch on fire.  10 houses burn to ground.   Add 10 houses to cost of maintaining transport grid.  True story


Naumann's plan for distribution needs transformers, fuses, spools of wire, glass insulators, bucket trucks with insulation and grounding, long fiberglass poles, insulated gloves, trained people.... plus standardization, billing, ....

And high voltage danger pay, workers compensation, health care for the power worker family, unemployment insurance, retirement pension.  Bucket truck, mandatory high voltage OSHA training.  mandatory arc-flash-avoidance OSHA training, arc flash protection gear, mandatory tower and pole climbing safety training, mandatory safe-driver-education training, diesel insurnace oil change for picker bucket truck.  Insulated socket set, screwdrivers, ladders, insulated everything.   Donuts on Fridays.   Vacation pay.

Question:   Do generators sell at market rate during heat waves and make more money at night? 

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